I was talking to a friend from school and he made an interesting observation about my church. In his observations it seems that the women in my church way outclass the men they are partnered with. The men end up with great looking, intelligent, socially well-adjusted, on the ball women; while the women, unable to find a mate that matches up, end up settling for less than their ideal male (she's thin, he's fat, she's nicely dressed, he a bit sloppy, she's socially normal, he's a bit quirky, etc.). In my cynical state of mind and unwilling to "settle", I wanted to agree. That this was, in fact, true, and the reason I find dating discouraging and frustrating. (With some self-reflection I have to admit another factor: I am still disappointed about a dating relationship that didn't work out and am having trouble letting that one go, which is undoubtedly adding to my cynicism. But that weakens this argument, so I want to withdraw it from the conversation.)
But, as I look at my family and married friends I cannot affirm the accuracy of his observations. My brothers are great men, and the husbands of my friends are great fathers, good providers, intelligent and dress as well as their wife can get them to dress (because generally once they are married the wife controls the husband's wardrobe). And I also have some great single guy friends, though, they obviously fall short on my ideal scale and I on theirs or we would have tried to be more than friends.
And I definitely think that my LDS single guy friends would not affirm this theory at all. The way they choose girls to date it would seem they think the girls are not thin enough, cute enough, smart enough, funny enough or generally good enough for them. I look forward to their feedback in this conversation. (Except that J is the only one that reads and posts on my blog and he is not of the opinion I am referring to above. So, he'll have to step outside himself to give me a collective, male, LDS opinion.)
What is the truth behind expectations and realities of dating within the LDS church? Give me something to replace my cynicism with hope.
12 years ago
10 comments:
First of all, I'm sure that most LDS guys would be offended if you told them that the sisters were all getting a raw deal. At the same time, we always hear the importance of marrying above ourselves, spiritually-speaking, so do they tell you at women's conference to marry below yourselves spiritually-speaking?
Secondly, I do happen to know a couple guys who have a hard time being satisfied with a nice girl who is just cute, instead of totally hot. And it makes me mad. But then I have to wonder, am I so different? I guess I have to hope that in some way I am different, and lucky enough to be able to settle for someone who I think is "just cute" (what more do you really want/need), and not the hottest girl in town.
At the same time, I don't tend to think of myself as a catch looks-wise, (true or not, thats where my self-image currently is) so I always wonder why a girl would be interested in me, hoping that someone how my quick wit and stellar report cards will somehow help in winning them over. The fact that I assume that I am being judged on physical appearances probably stems from me judging others in this way.
I'm not sure if I've answered your questions or not, but I have to say that I have a new roommate who treats nice girls pretty poorly and yet there always seems to be another one lining up to get the crap treatment, so probably there is something wrong with LDS girls as well, but thats a whole other discussion.
Yes, well the conversation of girls putting up with a guy who treats them like crap is another conversation for another day.
I do think that you have a stellar report card. :) And I do also think that girls generally are more interested in the report card than the initial outward appearance, while guys are most interested in the outward appearance at all times.
I think you are right that most guys can never get past not being physically attracted, although sometimes you find that you can be physically attracted to someone that initially you weren't. It doesn't feel like thats a good thing, but it does seem pretty true.
As for girls being more interested (in the long run) in my report card, I hope you're right. Now if only I could get them to the long run.
As far as getting them to the long-run, I am not the expert to answer that question. (My last three relationships average out at 2.7 weeks.) But I don't understand why you have trouble getting dates? We've clarified that you're asking out the "right kind of girl" and not the little barbies, so they should be saying yes and having fun and getting to know you. I mean, it's not like you're asking them to listen to rap and hip-hop, sit through a football game, or borrow your hoodie? (That was all meant in fun, you know that, right? In all sincerity I think you're great! I'm ticked at the girls for you and I'm ticked at the boys for me! This is so not helping my attitude!)
I do understand your quandry. When I had those season tickets for Hale Center Theatre, I hated having to find a date to go with. There were those fun shining moments of good times, which is why that place has a special place in my heart, but most of the time it was just stress to find someone to go that liked plays, musicals, culture!
But I digress from our original topic...what was it? I'm going to lead out with the physical attraction problem. We all know that people can find themselves attracted to someone that they may not have been previously. BUT usually there is some kind of spark there that is unrecognized, or maybe I'll say not acted upon. Because if "it" isn't there, you can't force it and it's not a match.
So, the question remains in my mind: is there anything a girl can "do" to make herself more appealing to an LDS guy and visa versa? Now, we'll just accept that we're doing all we can to take care of our bodies, and aside from extreme reality show measures, looks are not going to change.
Is it really just the magic of "finding the right one and nothing else will matter"? Or is that Mormon Myth?
And I never responded to this: no, they do not tell us to marry below ourselves, though there is some talk among the women-folk about proper expectations in a mate. But what is being realistic and what is marrying beneath yourself?
You make some excellent points. I was just thinking tonight (and this is just a theory, mind you) that LDS women seem to do a better job of being attracted to people of their same relative attractiveness, meanwhile their male counterparts can't seem to be attracted to girls who are at their same level.
As far as what a girl can do to make herself more appealing...be approachable. Be interested. Make the guys feel like they have a shot with you. Make them feel like if they asked you out, you would say yes and want to go. Thats what I look for in a girl. Lots of girls, even though I might be attracted to, really don't make it very easy to ask them out. Not that I can't handle rejection. But if I can avoid it when its inevitable, I might as well.
And I think that most LDS girls do a good job doing this for guys that they are interested in. But when they think a guy is interested in them who doesn't meet their initial criteria, they also do a pretty good job of giving him the cold shoulder. But if they aren't so worried about looks, then they are probably limiting themselves.
I know lots of girls who complain that LDS guys don't date enough. But it really seems to me that what they mean is "LDS guys who I am interested in don't ask me out enough." Because I know a lot of girls who get asked out a lot. And I know a lot of girls who complain that guys keep calling them. Girls who screen their phone calls. Girls who treat guys like crap and then have the gall to tell guys they are slacking because they don't date enough.
I'm not really sure where this is going, but I better get to bed before I say something I'll regret. :) Glad to hear your opinions.
Are we making any headway here? Point well-taken...I do know girls that treat guys poorly. (Though I do feel it right here to point out that guys do the "fake" where they pretend they don't know a girl is interested because then they would have to do something about it. So they carry on as friends for as long as she'll allow and then have to stop hanging out when she finally realizes that he just likes her as a friend. Usually some awkwardness follows.)
In response to being approachable...I think that some fear may reside with the women because the guys that have the courage to approach are either Mr. Machismo(I'm stereotyping here) or socially inept. The normal, fun, solid guys are usually too afraid. This type of guy likes to feel out the situation first, and get to know the girls a little bit. So, then he gets tossed into the "friend" category because by the time he's ready to do some asking out she's assumed he just wants to be friends. Not that I've ever actually had this experience, I'm just theorizing.
What exactly does an approachable girl look like? Act like? Because I have a theory that guys are intimidated by girls who have a lot of direction and education and drive. There is a guy here that stopped calling me once he realized that I was a serious student. The guy was obviously not even interested in finding a new friend.
Making headway? Who knows. I will give you the point that some guys will let girls keep hanging around when they are not interested, but I there are SO MANY girls who do the same thing, stringing along the guy who claims he "just wants to be friends" even though he clearly is interested, because he knows that if he were to try to ask her out he'd get shot down. (There are so many cases like this that I've seen, I can't believe that you dare to call it a guy thing).
I agree that probably the guys who do have the courage to approach or either super full of themselves or have no clue. Which presupposes that this must not be the thing to do, or else all normal guys have it wrong. I fall into the category of guys who would hardly ever think of asking a girl out the first time he met her. And I wouldn't consider myself normal, but if you think thats normal then I thank you. I'd like to be more bold, and I guess it just takes more practice. My personal neuroses are more along the lines of worrying about things going too far before I'm sure what I want and then having to break up with someone, probably one of my biggest fears. Much bigger than being broken up with. Anyway, we don't need to get into that here, as I've believe I posted about it back near the beginning of my blog.
As far as being approachable...I'm trying to think how to put this into words...I guess just be friendly. I get the feeling that I must be very approachable because I seem to attract girls who don't get much attention. I'd have to guess that this is because I am generally friendly and interested in most people. Maybe this comes across as mildly flirty. Maybe not. Just theorizing. Anyway, girls who make guys feel like they are interested get a lot more dates than girls who you feel like you are pulling teeth to get a conversation out of. Feel free to say hello and start a conversation if you are interested. Just little things.
And finally, as for girls with a lot of drive and education and direction being intimidating...I personally find that to be attractive. At least in the way that I'm thinking of it. I personally find girls who are interested in learning and doing things with their lives to be much more attractive than girls who do hair or are secretaries who never finished college. Nothing against those girls, just not so much my type. Of course not every guy my age is working on a PhD, either, so I can't speak to the opinion of common man.
To me, girls are intimidating when they come across as someone who would want to run your life for you if you were to date/marry them. I have no problem is she has a plan, a direction, drive, etc. I just like to know that she's flexible enough that if necessary she could compromise for our family. As would I. Some girls just seem like if you were married to them, you'd spend a lot of time getting dragged around doing whatever they want to do, without getting a lot of input on things. And maybe thats true for all girls (its scares me the more I think about it), but at least with some girls you get the idea that you 'd at least get an equal say in things.
Nathan & Brock told me tonight that I have no authority to comment on anything male-oriented (Nathan called me out when I told him about the non-date-date that was a date). Well, I have some authority, but I should take into account what a guy says about guys. So, basically, I will never understand guys, I guess.
However, we are agreed that I'm a reputable authority on all things female. So, I will continue to impart my knowledge to you.
With some reflection, and at the risk of discounting all the headway we've made, I may be throwing my hands up in the air in defeat.
OK--so girls and guys lead each other on. Everyone likes to feel liked. And it feels good to hang out with someone that likes you. Although, I have to say, at a certain age a person should be upfront about it and be honest. I would hope that people we're coming into contact now would be mature enough not to pull that crap.
The more we talk in circles about this the more I am concluding a couple of things that are general rules for both of us: 1) have confidence in who you are. 2) be friendly and open to meeting people. 3) give others a chance. 4) Dating and marriage are a miracle, so don't give up hope. And I don't know why I started the numbering system because more could be added or taken away. Just some things that I think are important. Which takes me back to the one thing I did not want to touch, but as I've reflected over this the past few days it seems to be the one that is most important:
Attraction. We have to do everything we can to make ourselves attractive to the opposite sex. The initial part of the equation that we tossed out at the beginning may be the key. I've looked at it from all angles. Tell me I'm wrong about this.
One other thing--I think that guys that are educated and driven aren't necessarily intimidated by girls that are those things, but a lot of guys are intimidated by that. And I guess I'm not willing to come off stupid or flighty to attract a guy. So, I really hate to hear guys saying that they want a girl that is malleable.
And I am discouraged when a guy feels like he's settling for a girl that's "just cute". But it goes back to accepting who we are and being OK with it. Then looking for someone that likes who I am too. And someone who compliments me.
I'm not making any sense...
Well, I definitely won't deny that attraction is a large piece of the puzzle. But I also wouldn't say that you should do "everything we can to make ourselves attractive to the opposite sex". Everything is a strong word, and you probably didn't mean it the literal sense and I've just wasted this paragraph on semantics.
Anyway, just to re-iterate what I expect I've said here previously (there's so much here now that I can't be bothered to read it all before commenting), physical attractiveness is always a plus. I can't think of a single situation where that would detract from the equation. But, for me at least, it will never be enough, and I hope, and actually am pretty sure, its not my top priority. However, it is something you can find out in a tiny amount of time and effort. You look, you know, generally. Finding out if I am attracted to someone's personality can often take several decent-sized conversations, and maybe even a couple dates, especially since so often people don't open up, especially if they are attracted to you. Funny how that works. So basically, if you are hoping to find someone to whom you are at least somewhat physically attracted to, in addition to whatever else you want in a mate, its easy to just rule people out when they aren't attractive to you.
Lately, though I've been thinking that maybe here in Salt Lake, we are spoiled by there being so many attractive LDS gals, that it sometimes might feel like settling for someone, even when you get along with them just fine and even are not repulsed by their looks, because there are other girls that you can compare them to who, at least on first impresssions, score higher on your interestingness scale.
Maybe thats why we need to date more, because by dating you are at least opening yourself up to the idea of starting a relationship with someone. Whereas, by just sitting on the sidelines waiting for your shot at your highest ranking woman, you never even give other girls a chance when you might be perfectly happy with them.
The idea of their being just one special person for each of us might contribute to us thinking that anyone who isn't at the top of our list isn't good enough, or is settling.
This stuff I'm writing tonight really seems to ring true to me for some reason. Tell me what you think.
P.S. I got a girl's number via email while I was in DC and I'm going to call her and ask her out after the weekend.
The one and only theory definitely does make finding a mate a pressure-filled search. That's probably why Pres. Kimball (Bensen??) gave the talk clearing that misconception. My roommate and I just had a discussion tonight about a guy we know that fits the role of good guy and could probably make it work with any girl if she was willing.
I agree that the reason we date is to get to know people on a deeper level. It's OK for that to take several dates to get to the heart of a person. But people are afriad to make the committment of even a few evenings if they aren't sure about the person. I think maybe we need to be more willing to give it a shot. I dunno. I really can argue this point both ways.
When I said do what we can to make ourselves attractive the "everything" applied (in my mind) to both physical and spiritual. Not that you have to beat yourself up to be something for someone else, but just that we should be striving in all areas of our life to be a good companion.
A couple of new points...
one: dating vs. courting. My cousin's bishop told him that one of the problems with dating is people think that they need to jump from dating into making a marriage decision. His bishop said that you need to court a girl, date her in a more serious fashion to see if she is someone you could marry. So, dating, courting, marriage.
two: this guy in my ward posed the idea that the reason guys like to date younger girls is because younger girls don't expect as much. They haven't (generally) dated as much and so any efforts of chivalry or degree of thoughtfulness by the male are appreciated more by the younger than older girls. And I can say that I do expect guys to have more of a life-plan than I did when I was younger, so in that way I do expect more.
And one point I'm adding that I just thought of: I don't think LDS guys are very good at just complimenting girls and making them feel good about who they are. Maybe it's our culture, but I feel like guys are afraid if they say anything complimentary then the girl will turn around and be interested in them. This is not true in all cases, but I think something needs to be done in our culture to create a more positive self-image for women.
I think you made some great points in your blog. And if you truly want to appreciate what beautiful girls Utah has to offer, move East. :) There are less of us here to pick from, though, we are still beautiful but just more sparse.
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